Tuesday, November 01, 2005

Terror, anti-zionism, anti-semitism?

I am fed up arguing with people who see life as taking sides. I do not take sides, not because I am indecisive, not because it’s too easy to take sides, but because it is simplistic.
My goal in life (at this point in my life) is to seek answers. I am not interested in the easy answers. What I want to know is truth-in so far as there is truth. I describe myself as being beyond borders, but I am all too aware of my European-Judeo-Christian roots, and of the society in which I live. Therefore in my search for answers, I obviously concentrate on the sphere in which I believe I can effect the most change.
Nowadays, the ‘great threat’ is apparently terrorism. This is a very vague term. What does terrorism mean? Well, it means different things to different people. The problem is, how are we going to find answers, if we define things only by our own views of these things?
Terror has a definition. The closest to what I am discussing here would be the following:

“Violence committed or threatened by a group to intimidate or coerce a population, as for military or political purposes.”

Well, if we take this as the definition, terror exists in different forms, in different parts of the globe, and is used by very different ‘groups’.
These days, we tend to see terror as the monopoly of one group : Islamic fundamentalists. I do not wish to spend much time on the obvious fact that these fundamentalists do not represent Muslims the world over. To me, as to most reasoned people, the terror which certain Islamic fundamentalists unleash is unbearable. It is, to me contrary to human nature.
More importantly, however, there are and have been many other kinds of terrorism. Obvious examples for us in the ‘West’, are Catholic and Protestant acts of terror in Northern Ireland, Basque terror or Corsican terror.
In the past, there have been other kinds of Christian terror, as the example of attacks on Protestants by Catholics in France shows.
Here I’d like to mark a pause, to point out that this last example proves my point that it is impossible to ‘take sides’. The Protestants in France in the 16th century were not the same as those in Northern Ireland in the 20th and 21st centuries. Also, it can be said that Catholics suffered from Protestant attacks prior to the anti-Protestant pogroms. So, it is therefore impossible to say members of the Catholic religion are worse than those of the Protestant religion and vice-versa.
If we return to the Islamic fundamentalist strain of terror, we must also point out that this brand of ‘Islam’ is not representative of Islam throughout history. At the time of the crusades, there was a Muslim general by the name of Saladin who was
“renowned in both the Christian and Muslim worlds for his leadership and military prowess tempered by his chivalry and merciful nature during the Crusades.”(Wikipedia).
I feel the need here to point out that I am still not taking sides. The battles for influence over ‘the holy land’ were not, in my opinion, justifiable on one side or another. I am simply pointing out that one side was not necessarily better than the other.
Too often, people try to explain modern day attitudes by the past. We are different from our ancestors. I am not a believer, but as I have said, I am a member of a Judeo-Christian society. The acts of previous generations of Christians of Jews do not, however, define who I am. That is also the case for those who call themselves believers. Thankfully, today’s Catholics are not out to murder or forcefully convert members of the Protestant community.
Incidentally, the same goes for more recent history. Today’s generations of Germans are not responsible for the acts of the Nazis, even if we are all responsible for ‘remembering’ the past.
Then there is state-terror. Well-known examples of this took place in Latin American dictatorships, such as those in Chile, Guatemala and El Salvador. These dictatorships were supported by western ‘democracies’, as were so-called counter-revolutionary forces in Nicaragua which unleashed terror in innocent civilians.
If we talk about ethnic and religious violence in general (not necessarily defined as ‘terror’), we can mention examples of Muslim-Hindu clashes in India. The origins of these clashes can be debated, but there are most definitely violent organizations on both sides, and the victims, whatever their faith, are mostly innocent.
As I have said, I believe I can effect more change in my socio-geographical sphere than in another. Also, I believe it is important to see which ‘groups’, on a global level, are the most capable of bringing about change. That is to say, who has the most power to deliver change.
It is obvious that there are few democratic Muslim states. I do not claim the contrary. I choose, however, to criticize Israel because it is a state, which is closer to my culture than Muslim states. Also, it is a state, which is protected by the US, a state which is closer still to my culture, and which is also the world’s only remaining super power. The US has the world’s mightiest military force, and Israel is close behind. An opinion often put forward is that Israel is surrounded by hostile Arab states, and therefore needs to defend it’s self. Israel’s military successes on several fronts shows it is far from being the victim it would like to be seen as.
For me, a Jewish state is no more democratic than an Islamic state. The fact, that Israeli-Arabs enjoy more freedom than Jews in an Islamic state, does not make Israel, as a Jewish state, anymore democratic. The survival of Israel as Jewish state depends on limiting the rights of Arabs, or on limiting the Arab population of Israel. In both cases, this is contrary to my view of a democracy. In practice there is no doubt more democracy in Israel-for its citizens-than in most Muslim states.
There are several reasons as to why Israel is a unique case. Obviously it is the sole Jewish state in the world. It is presented as the ‘only democracy in the middle east’, though you’ve probably realized I don’t agree with that statement. Furthermore it is probably the only state in which nationality is bound up not only with a religion but also an ethnic group : though it is debatable as to whether the Jews are an ethnic group, that is how they are presented. Imagine if to be French you had to prove descent from the Francs, if to be British you had to be of Celtic or Pictish(!) descent. And what of Americans? They’d have to descend from Native Americans…Also, Israel is said to represent the world’s Jews. No Muslim state is said to represent the world’s Muslims. India doesn’t represent the world’s Hindus. The only other state to represent members of a religion throughout the world is to my knowledge the Vatican…
Often, and argument ‘in defense’ of Israel, is that surrounding Muslim states are undemocratic, and that critics of Israel ‘ignore’ that. Israel’s ‘defenders’ claim it’s critics deny the right only to Jews to have a state. While there may well be people who have a wish to deny that right specifically to Jews, most thinking people would give no more no less right to the Jews to have a state than any other ethnic/religious group. Actually, it’s not about the ‘right’ to have a state. It’s about what one views as a democracy. To me and to many others, a democracy welcomes people regardless of religious belief or ethnicity. Furthermore, those who criticize Israel quite often denounce the support given by Western powers to Muslim dictatorships, such as Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. The same people often support groups such as Amnesty International, which regularly condemns Muslim dictatorships, despite the ludicrous claim by some, that Amnesty reserves most of it’s criticism for Israel. Finally, Israel is a state, which was formed just 60 years ago by the United Nations with the support of Western nations.
Another claim is that Zionists would have been happy to share ‘Palestine’ with the Arabs in 1947. There is, however, plenty of evidence, that these early Zionists (there were also those who opposed a Jewish state within the Zionist movement) wanted the whole of the land for their state. Here are some quotes :
Chaim Weizmann (worked on Balfour declaration, 1917, and Israel’s first president):
“With regard to the Arab question-the British told me that there are several hundred thousand negroes there but that this matter has no significance”(quoted by Arthur Ruppin) (Yossef Heller, Bama’ avak Lamdina, p140, in Chomsky, p481)
David Ben-Gurion Israel’s first PM:
“The acceptance of partition does not commit us to renounce Transjordan; one does not demand from anybody to give up his vision. We shall accept a state in the boundaries fixed today, but the boundaries of Zionist aspirations are the concern of the Jewish people and no external factor will be able to limit them”.(speech of 1937, cited in New Outlook (Tel Aviv), April 1977, from Ben-Gurion’s Memoirs, in Chomsky, p161).

The idea that anti-zionism is merely a front for anti-semitism is also a false argument. Again, while there may well be some people who are anti-zionist and anti-semitic, this does nothing to refute the argument of those who are anti-zionist, but in no way anti-semitic. There are also many anti-zionist Jews. In fact early Zionism was often opposed to a Jewish state. In those days, Zionism meant settling in Palestine, but not necessarily building a Jewish state.
Here is another quote from Chomsky’s book, Fateful Triangle:
“Earlier, it’s leaders-particularly those from the labor movement that dominated the Palestinian Yishuv (Jewish settlement)-forcefully opposed the concept of a Jewish state on the explicit grounds that ‘the rule of one national group over another ‘ is illegitimate”. (Chomsky, p160).
I’d like to point out that dismissing the use of these examples of Jewish anti-zionism as a front for anti-semitism, in no way diminishes the view that a Jewish state is undemocratic.
That's it for today...
UPDATE:
I am a realist as well as a humanist. I do not equate Israeli Jews with their 'leaders', just as i do not equate Jews with Israelis. I do not believe Israeli Jews should suddenly give up their homes-though I do believe it was right to evacuate the colonies, since the settlers were totally aware of the illegality and immorality of their settlements. Obviously the children could not be held responsible, but they were well recieved in Israel proper, which was not the case for Palestinian refugees who were forced out of their rightful homes.
I believe Israelis, particularly second and third generations, have every right to remain where they are at least in the short to middle term. In the long term I believe in a bi-national (or even multi-national) state. That would be the only way towards a truly middle-eastern democracy.

32 Comments:

At 11:58 AM, Blogger Baron Bodissey said...

Jez, thanks for letting us know. I'm putting a little note up at Gates of Vienna so people can come over here if they want.

 
At 12:35 PM, Blogger Jez said...

Thanks baron.
Jeyi, please clarify.

 
At 1:02 PM, Blogger Jez said...

As someone who does not know the region, I probably do not know the region as well as you do, Jeyi. This is one reason for what I wrote in the UPDATE. However, since I follow the news from that region carefully, and I am interested in what goes on there, because of my background and origins, I believe I am entitled to an opinion.
I don't really see how my comments are callow. I have merely said what many people say, including people who know the region, its politics and its history quite well. Among them are also many Jews and even Israelis.

 
At 1:13 PM, Blogger Dymphna said...

I don't think callow is it. You seem to me to be an idealist, someone who would like to fashion a transnational identity. But a man without a country is a man without a home, or an inner space to call his own -- it will have been ceded to an idea.

Unless they have practical applications, ideas kill. That's why the UN has turned into a corrupt, sad whore. All ideas and no engine of accountability.

That's why Europe is headed to Civil War...except it's not very civil.

We cannot survive without a meaning we're willing to die for. That's a bred-in-the-bone "idea" behind the American experiment and it has very practical applications and enough accountability to keep corruption from rotting the floor out from beneath us.

It is an illusion to believe you can live/function/flourish/thrive without taking sides. That's the process by which we assign meaning to our existence. It's not that one never changes sides -- who would want to be that inflexible --and it's not that one ever has all the answers.

With luck, though, the questions change and that is enough.

A quibble: "terrorism" is not a "very vague term." Start with the etymology:

c.1375 "great fear," from O.Fr. terreur (14c.), from L. terrorem (nom. terror) "great fear, dread," from terrere "fill with fear, frighten," from PIE base *tre- "shake" (see terrible). Meaning "quality of causing dread" is attested from 1528; terror bombing first recorded 1941, with ref. to German air attack on Rotterdam. Sense of "a person fancied as a source of terror" (often with deliberate exaggeration, as of a naughty child) is recorded from 1883. The Reign of Terror in Fr. history (March 1793-July 1794) so called in Eng. from 1801 .

As a formerly battered woman, I know intimately what it is to live in terror. And I would disagree that it means "different things to differnt people"....

...Come on. It means being scared s***less.

Since communication is always the act of the recipient, I will say that your words and ideas sound like someone who has barricaded himself...
...Sounds like you have a long and lonely pilgrimage ahead of you, jez. I hope you find kindred souls and lights along the way.

 
At 3:00 PM, Blogger truepeers said...

Here I’d like to mark a pause, to point out that this last example proves my point that it is impossible to ‘take sides’. The Protestants in France in the 16th century were not the same as those in Northern Ireland in the 20th and 21st centuries. Also, it can be said that Catholics suffered from Protestant attacks prior to the anti-Protestant pogroms. So, it is therefore impossible to say members of the Catholic religion are worse than those of the Protestant religion and vice-versa.

-of course we do not need to remain loyal to labels that change over time along with the people who claim them. But to talk of the impossibility of taking sides is scary. It suggests an inability on your part to perform moral decision making. When you see people doing violence to others, you have to take sides as a moral human being. If you see someone being assaulted in the street, do you just walk on thinking "none of my business" or do you take sides and do what you can to intervene?

People are being killed in the Middle East. Many more are threatened with nuclear hell fire. So, if you presume to be a moral actor, either you take sides or you decide after all due consideration that both sides are equally evil/guilty in the violence. If the latter you then have to decide if it best for the rest of the world and humanity to impose peace or to let them kill each other off or let the more capable side prove its ethical superiority in terms of its superior military/organizational capability.

But if you are really honest with yourself, you will rarely find that you have equal contempt for both sides. You will find that you think one side has the better argument - even if it is an ugly argument, even if it only proves that we are all immersed in evil to some degree or another - and you will find that you would actually like one outcome to the conflict more than another, even as you also dislike both possibilities It is a rare thing to really believe that both sides are equally damnable.

In the real world, our choice is usually between two evils and we must choose the lesser evil. ONly in the world of the mind, where we forget for the moment all the social mechanisms by which conflict is deferred (and never finally resolved), thus giving us time to think, can we imagine that we can avoid choices. Your choice to not take a choice is a choice. And it is only possible because you are privileged in innumberable ways that allow you time to think. But why don't you go to, say, Darfur, and tell the people it is impossible to take sides. I'm sure they will be really impressed with your grasp of human necessity/freedom. They will say you are divorced from reality.

There is much I disagree with in your post. I will limit myself to one more comment. Israel does not want to be seen as a victim. Victimary thinking is not typical of Jews who only want to assert their right to exist and live as Jews. VIctimary thinking is typical of the postmodern westerner who is full of (post)Christian guilt. Once you learn to see beyond your own addiction to victimary thinking you will gain the means to make more decisions, take sides. It's not that their aren't real victims in the world; but they, and the rest of us, are not best served by a habit of thought that always sees the world in terms of victims and victimizers.

 
At 3:45 PM, Blogger Papa Ray said...

I think you really believe what you say. But that is the more pity, because a true believer can not learn or grow.

The Islamic "True Believers" love people like you. You make the perfect slave.

I believed in Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy and that my Parents would always be there to take care of me.

I learned different at a very early age.

I hope your learning is less stessful and painful than mine was.

Papa Ray
West Texas
USA

 
At 7:03 PM, Blogger Thomas von der Trave said...

Man oh man.

No one objects to Poland being mostly for the Poles. No one worries about Denmark being full of Danes.

Well, actually, there are some who do. They're called Muslims and they want the whole world for themselves. To heck with Europe and its funny customs, churches, cheeses, etc. The Muslims want it all.

Of course they've already got several dozen countries where it's de facto or de jure illegal to be anything but a Muslim.

Yet here we have yet again the discussion of why it is bothersome (to someone who seems to know little of the area - have you ever been to the Muddle East, jez? - or its history) that Israel is mostly for the Jews. I say mostly because, besides those pesky "Palestinian refugees," there are currently something like 1.5 million Israeli Arabs (NOT the same thing as the Palis) living in Israel proper. With citizenship, the right to vote, and all that good stuff.

You might take Saudi Arabia as a point of comparison. Aside from Filipino house-slaves, there is nothing "multicultural" or "multinational" about the Magic Kingdom. But this bothers you apparently not at all. Instead, you want to impose some kind of "solution" of your own devising on Israel, the most diverse nation in the reason.

Gets me kind of steamed, it does.

But never mind: the Israelis will decide what kind of society they want to be in the short, medium or long term without any input from you.

That is, if people of good will don't completely abandon Israel, out of convenience (it would be so much easier to have the Arabs off our backs about the damn Jews, wouldn't it?) or malice (finally buying into the jihadist Muslim lies) and allow the mullahs to put her out of our misery.

 
At 11:58 PM, Blogger Jez said...

Dymphna,
I'm afraid you haven't convinced me, that having a 'home' means having a 'state'. Either I am extraterrestrial, or I am proof that that view is not necessarilly right.
This, however, is beside the point. I never said people who happen to be Jewish were not entitled to have a home. Cato compares the Poles and the Danes to Jews. What he seems to forget, is that being Danish or Polish has nothing to do with religion or ethnicity. As for Saudi Arabia, who says I don't have a problem with that country? I suggest you re-read my post properly before posting nonesense.
Dymphna, I'm sure if you're honest, you realise that when I said terror means different things for different people, I meant people have different experiences of it. Your experience was not the same as that of someone in London on July 7th or of someone in Guatemala in the 80's. I'm not saying it was worse or better. It was simply different. Today, many people wish to appropriate the term for their own cause. This is why many who wish to defend the so-called war on terror, dismiss the idea, that what happened in Latin America with the support of US administrations was terror. And yet, g_d knows the innocent civilians must have been scared s***less!
Truepeers, I also suggest to you, that you read my post in it's entirety, assuming you didn't do just that and chose to ignore a huge part of it. I think most people who read it properly will be able to tell that I do indeed take sides in specific cases. My point was, that it is not possible to take sides for or against Islam, for or against Judaism based on what a few members of those religions do or don't do.
My personal opinion is that (organised) religion often causes pain and suffering. This does not mean despise believers. Also, I do not think one religion is better or worse than another, since I believe(not fanatically), that man made religion in his image, that is to say depending on his culture.
I think it is obvious I take sides in the Middle Eastern conflict, otherwise you and the others who have posted here wouldn't be posting, would you? I simply refuse to judge an entire religious or ethnic group based on events there.My opinions are entirely political and moral.
As for Israel as a victim, of course, I do not doubt many Israelis do not wish to be seen as victims, but victimhood is an excuse often used by Israeli leaders and pro-Israel lobbies. Also, comparing Jews and Israelis is fallacious. I'm sure you are aware of the huge differences between Jews in general and Israelis, culturally speaking.

 
At 2:35 AM, Blogger Jez said...

Oskar, I agree with most of what your say. However, the main difference between the examples you gave and Israel, is that Israel is defined by ethnicity AND religion. Also, Hitler and Tudjman belong to the past, and extremist Danes are not in power at the moment. France also had some pretty racist laws rearding nationality based on so-called 'blood rights', but it still didn't define nationality by ethnicity, but rather by parentage.
BTW, Jeyi, your guess is just that:a guess.Given that most knowlegable anti-zionists do not have access to the main-stream media, it'll probably have to remain a guess. There are plenty of knowlegeable people out there who defend Israel come what may. Pity they don't choose to use their knowlege in putting their arguments forward.

 
At 5:08 AM, Blogger Jez said...

Vdhanson,
This post was not about Chomsky, but I will answer your attack on him anyway.
The 'Faurisson affair', has been dealt with already. Chomsky defended Faurisson's(and through this affair, everyone's)freedom of speech. His mistake was to allow(unwittingly)his text to be used as an introduction to a book by Faurisson (or a book in defense of Faurisson, depending on reports).What some people fail to realise, is that in france there is much less freedom of speech than in the US, where perhaps a Faurisson-style
negationist would have elicited much less passion.
Regarding the rest of your comment, I suppose you didn't read my post in it's entirety, otherwise you wouldn't assume that I believed Israel should be wiped off the map.Furthermore, if anti-semitism is so rampant, and Europe is at danger of welcoming fascism once more, as some have said, one has to wonder how the state of Israel has been successful in protecting the world's Jews.
Here is what Chomsky wrote:
wikipedia

Chomsky wrote:
Faurisson's conclusions are diametrically opposed to views I hold and have frequently expressed in print (for example, in my book Peace in the Middle East, where I describe the Holocaust as "the most fantastic outburst of collective insanity in human history"). But it is elementary that freedom of expression (including academic freedom) is not to be restricted to views of which one approves, and that it is precisely in the case of views that are almost universally despised and condemned that this right must be most vigorously defended. It is easy enough to defend those who need no defense or to join in unanimous (and often justified) condemnation of a violation of civil rights by some official enemy. [6]
In defense of Faurisson himself, he wrote:
Let me add a final remark about Faurisson's alleged "anti-Semitism." Note first that even if Faurisson were to be a rabid anti-Semite and fanatic pro-Nazi -- such charges have been presented to me in private correspondence that it would be improper to cite in detail here -- this would have no bearing whatsoever on the legitimacy of the defense of his civil rights. On the contrary, it would make it all the more imperative to defend them since, once again, it has been a truism for years, indeed centuries, that it is precisely in the case of horrendous ideas that the right of free expression must be most vigorously defended; it is easy enough to defend free expression for those who require no such defense. Putting this central issue aside, is it true that Faurisson is an anti-Semite or a neo-Nazi? As noted earlier, I do not know his work very well. But from what I have read -- largely as a result of the nature of the attacks on him -- I find no evidence to support either conclusion. Nor do I find credible evidence in the material that I have read concerning him, either in the public record or in private correspondence. As far as I can determine, he is a relatively apolitical liberal of some sort. [7]

 
At 5:13 AM, Blogger Unknown said...

Jez, I'm far to busy doing things that will physically help the world to defend you in this game of "you are wrong because you are obviously wtrong."

I'll just say this, vdhanson, try another poison the well fallacy. We actually know what Chomsky wrote in the foreward of Faurisson's book - and it wasn't a "dedication." Either you don't or are hoping we don't.

 
At 7:20 AM, Blogger Unknown said...

I thought I told you to pick a better well poisoning fallacy. There is no reaction for Chomsky to have. Their is nothing to deny, the issue was thoroughly addressed in Manufacturing Consent - a movie that was released in 1993. So there has been no attempt to hide anything. It's all been out in the open for over a decade.

Now, I'm sure that you will go on and on and insist that the noting you have in your argument that is just a defense of a fallacy anyway is, in fact, everything. Bully for you. I have aready wasted enough tie here and have real work to attend to. Knock yourselves out boys. I'm not bothering with this anymore.

 
At 8:00 AM, Blogger Jez said...

Claiming to have seen Chomsky's face when he was accused, is no proof he was lying. A brief look at pretty much any of his works will convince any rationally-thinking person, that Chomsky is not a Holocaust denier, and even less an anti-semite.
Telling me, that many Arabs hold views close to mine, is not proof, that my views are wrong.
I do advocate, that one day there be no 'Jewish state', as well as no 'Islamic state'. That does not mean that I advocate that Jews ever leave the land Israel presently occupies.Jews lived there for centuries before a Jewish state was proclaimed.
your 'explanation' with regards to the 1937 quote do nothing to disprove my views either. Ben-Gurion spoke of the 'Zionist aspirations' whic were to have a homeland which covered the whole of the land supposed to have been promised to the Jews bu g_d.

While it is possible to be an Israeli citizen, the state of Israel clearly is defined by it's Jewish character.
Link
" The concept of "ethnic community" is a specifically Israeli notion which consists in the inscription on the individual's identity card of the religion to which he or she belongs: Jewish, Moslem, Christian or Druze. Alongside the rights and obligations incumbent on all citizens, the members of the different communities are subject to those applying to their specific groups (for marriage and divorce, for instance, they appear before their own courts)."

"Here it may be objected that such a step would endanger the Jewish character of the State of Israel."

link

"In reality, this is not a "Jewish democratic state" but a "Jewish demographic state". Demography overcomes democracy in all fields of action. An Arab citizen feels at every turn, since childhood, that he has no part in the state, that he is, at most, a tolerated resident. In every government office, police station or place of work, even in the Knesset, he is treated differently from a Jew, even in times of quiet. True, apart from the Law of Return, which gives a "Jew" and his family (but not to Arab refugees) the absolute right to come to Israel, no law discriminates between a "Jew" and a non-Jew. But this is only make-believe: numerous laws accord special privileges to persons "to whom the Law of Return applies", without mentioning "Jews" specifically."

link

"The Law of Return—which permits Jews to emigrate freely to Israel and defines who is eligible for such immigration in the broadest terms, including those who are the grandchildren of a Jew—must be tightened to prevent an influx of non-Jewish immigrants who will threaten the Jewish nature of the state, says Eli Yishai, leader of the Shas Party."

 
At 12:08 PM, Blogger Thomas von der Trave said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 12:23 PM, Blogger Thomas von der Trave said...

Jez sez:

"Cato compares the Poles and the Danes to Jews. What he seems to forget, is that being Danish or Polish has nothing to do with religion or ethnicity."

Really. Well, religion I grant you, though the vast majority of Danes are Protestants and Poles Catholic.

But ethnicity? When was the last time you looked up the word? If I claim Wales as my homeland and Welsh as my mother tongue, then that is the very definition of ethnicity.

The problem with you crypto-anti-Semites (and Chomsky worshippers) is that you can never seem to separate the two. My comparison was meant to underscore the point that the Jews as a people (ethnos) are the only ones whose possession of a discrete homeland raises the ire of nearly everybody who has a problem (acknowledged or not) with Judaism as a religion.

Since you define yourself as a being "without borders," it's no wonder you have trouble respecting other peoples'. The good news is, you're not in charge.

You're not callow, Jez, you're just dumb. And transparent. A de facto anti-Semite, in fact.

By the way, your blog title should read "blogus, bloga, blogum." Blogae would be the nominative plural, or the genitive or dative singular. I know because I'm Cato and Latin is my native language. Roman is my ethnicity, in case you're still confused.

 
At 12:33 PM, Blogger Jez said...

Chomsky merely defended free speech, He made clear he did not share Faurisson's views, and that he didn't intend the text to be used by Faurisson. Whether it is anti-semitic to express the view that official reports of gaz chambers were exagerrated can be debated. From what I have studied and read, I choose to believe they weren't exagerrated, even if I believe the Holocaust has been used irrationally in defense of Israel.
The 'one man of one party' merely advocated an already-existing racist law:the Law of Return.
I posted several quotes which show that Israel has an inherently Jewish character which is undemocratic. It would surely be very naive to say an Arab could ever be PM or President of Israel.
The majority of the world's Jews live outside Israel, mainly in the US. Are you saying they are at risk of being exterminated again?
Your comment on me 'agreeing with Arabs' is an association fallacy.
Cato,
You go from talking about Danes and Poles to talking about the Welsh. Either you are too stupid to realise the difference or it is simply bad faith.
As for the rest of your post it is a pile of ad hominems and other fallacies which simply show you have ignored most of my post and comments.

 
At 12:39 PM, Blogger Thomas von der Trave said...

So the ethnicity of a Dane or a Pole is different in quality from that of a Welshman? Astonishing!Please explain.

We already know what you think of the Jews, so don't bother prancing by on that pony again.

 
At 1:50 PM, Blogger Jez said...

Hmmm...look it up yourself, Cato, I'm sure you're capable of doing that.
What I think of the Jews? I haven't made the slightest allusion to what I might or not might think of the Jews other than how I define the concept of 'the Jewish people'.

 
At 2:46 PM, Blogger Thomas von der Trave said...

As I said, you're transparent. What you think is as easy to read as adding one plus one.

As for "looking it up," there's nothing there to look up. What, the Book of Jez? You lack the most basic understanding of the concepts of ethnicity and nationhood, so there's no point in embarrassing you further by continuing this "argument." Chomsky would be ashamed of you.

 
At 10:47 PM, Blogger Jez said...

That text, Jeyi, might have been quite funny, had it not been a pathetic attampt at ridiculing critics of Israel. In case some people haven't got it yet, my view, as well as that of a great deal of anti-zionists, is not for Jews to leave the 'Holy Land', but for there to be a bi-national state.
I don't expect a group of people hell-bent on rejecting any opposition with the use of the most irrational arguments to understand, but hey, it's worth a try!
Cato, you bore me.

 
At 5:39 AM, Blogger Jez said...

And here's a link for Cato, it might help him understand certain distinctions.
http://globalikum.blogspot.com/2005/11/artificially-and-undemocratically.html

 
At 7:10 AM, Blogger Jez said...

Vdhanson wrote:
"That you agree with arabs who feel nearly consonant about Israel IS significant, so sorry. Since what they want is based on just one thing, and for just ONE reason."

I can make association fallacies too. France's far-right Le Pen today said France was "attacked by foreign hordes". I guess those who agree with these comments must be Le Pen sympathisers.

That's an association. I DO NOT hold such a fallacious belief however.

 
At 12:41 PM, Blogger Thomas von der Trave said...

A "binational state" with people who since 1948 have sworn to destroy Israel and push al-Yahud into the sea? Please explain how that's going to work.

Ad hominem attacks do not necessarily advance one's argument Jez, but that does not make them fallacious. If I were to say you are a 29-year-old simpleton who spews noxious idealistic pablum as though he were 15, that would be true, even if it doesn't win the debate.

 
At 1:24 AM, Blogger Jez said...

Cato, didn't Jews and Arabs live alongside each other for centuries in Palestine/Eretz Yisrael? Why did the Palestinian Arabs suddenly develop such a hatred for the Jews that they wanted to 'drive them into the sea'?
Ad Hominems are fallacies within a debate.You are permitted to use them if you so wish, and I am permitted to point out that they are fallacies.

 
At 3:16 AM, Blogger Jez said...

BTW, Cato, here are extracts from th 'right of Return' law, posted on the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs website:

4A. (a) The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law, 5712-1952***, as well as the rights of an oleh under any other enactment, are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew, except for a person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion.

4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."

And you want me to believe, that in Israel there is a distinction between 'ethnos' and religion?
If Israel were a true democracy, it would welcome all on an equal basis, regardless of religious affiliation. Of course, the very idea of Israel was as a home for the Jews. The problem is, Jewishness is based on a religious idea. I have Jewish roots, and therefore by definition, Jewish ethnicity(although who knows if I really descend from the Hebrews?). However, since it comes from my father's side, I would not be considered Jewish, unless my mother had converted-and then what would that have to do with ethnicity?
There is no such thing as a Polish or a Danish nation in the Jewish sense of the word. Presumably,if it is anything like in France or Britain,to become Polish or Danish, one would simply have to live there for a certain time. If it is anything like what it is here, there are no doubt imperfections in the way nationality is given, but one thing is for certain, you don't have to be a Catholic to become Polish or a Protestant to become Danish.
In case you're still wondering about the difference between Danes&Poles and the Welsh, here's a clue:Wales is not an independent state.Still, no doubt I could go there, live there for a while, learn Welsh(not that many people speak it-even among 'real' Welsh people), and call myself Welsh, without too many people objecting. It would probably be a bit harder in Scotland or Ireland, but those are cultural differences.

 
At 3:43 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

Well, good to see that Venerial Disease Hanson and crew are not getting you to waste your time on their fallacious rhetoric anymore.

Now you can get down to more productive pursuits, as well you should.

 
At 4:01 PM, Blogger willtotruth said...

Jez,

I think you have pretty good critical instincts. I appreciate your aim at getting at the truth of matters and I think your reflections on matters are a good start. Your views on terrorism are sound. You make good points about Israel and democracy as well as about anti-Zionism versus anti-Semitism.



I recommend three articles to read. I do not recommend them as definitive statements but rather as thought provoking arguments and analyses regarding the very issues you are discussing.


What is Anti-semitism

http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann0604.html

Getting in Touch with Your Inner Terrorist - How We Became Barbarians

http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann12162004.html

An Introduction to the Israel-Palestine Conflict

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/article.php?pg=4&ar=10


Brad
here@willtotruth.com

 
At 6:28 PM, Blogger Unknown said...

Brad, just be glad the crazies aren't here to see your post...

 
At 12:41 PM, Blogger Thomas von der Trave said...

"Crazies" = anyone who disagrees with Chomsky, Djeb, Willtotruth and the great dyslexic Jez, right?

Right.

Keep barking, little doggies.

 
At 9:09 AM, Blogger Unknown said...

Back again for another non sequitur, or perhaps another strawman? Nah. You're just here to disrupt. The delete button should be the way Jez handles you.

 
At 6:22 AM, Blogger Jez said...

Nah. Cato has the right to make a public fool of himself.

 
At 9:28 AM, Blogger Unknown said...

Well, I invite him to put his precious life energy into comments on one of my blogs... so that I can delete it.

 

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